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    • Wonko

      New Posts   07/07/17

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OldGuyFarmer

Copyright and Claims Rant

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Not to start an argument or anything and please don't take this in wrong way this goes out to all map makers who think they have ownership and who make claims of copyright for everything they do, but I hope you do realize you have to actually file a copyright claim for any and all digital items with proof of creation which is a costly deal to do, plus the second you make a map public and is put on public websites all items contained therin ie: map and map objects unless copyright notice and proof is posted for public viewing all items are public domain and if said map is published on the giants website all item become the property of giants so pleas as a map maker stop making claims of ownership as it is just hot air being blown there is no copyright and if you don't want people using your items then why are you making them public? you should be happy that others find items within your map or maps interesting enough to put in their own maps provided correct credit is given. I understand that some of you work hard and long to create stuff but if you don't want it out there then I suggest you don't put it out. Ok so I am sure someone will now say that this **BadWord** them off and they will quite and never release anything again. Well my answer to that is if your gonna be a cry baby about it then so be it. I create maps also and anything in my maps is created by others. Ether that be giants or the many great moders out there. I know what kind of hours are put into creating a map but I do it for fun and for others to enjoy and never will you hear me cry if someone takes my map and makes it into a map they enjoy playing. They may add some stuff they may remove some stuff I don't really care as long as they are enjoying it and having fun. All I ask is that they maybe try and remember to give me credit for the base map and if they forget or don't so be it I had fun creating the map and have moved on to my next project it's no big deal it's a freaking game and everyone needs to relax and enjoy. Sit back and watch how many people will take your creation and make something new from it. Who know's maybe they will think of something or have an idea that you didn't think of and you could implement in a future update.

Ok enough ranting time to get back to farming. 

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From the official Terms of Service with Giants.

6.1 GIANTS shall provide Customers with the GIANTS Editor, either via the website or bundled with the games, as a free download for the creation of the Customer’s own User Generated Content, and the use thereof within the scope of games and/or online services. The Customer shall therefore receive access to various tools. The Customer can use these to create and share its own content (“User Generated Content”). The GIANTS Editor and the tools included therein may only be used if the Customer has legally acquired a game from GIANTS beforehand, and has downloaded this to his end device (e.g. computer, console, smartphone etc., hereinafter known as “End Device”)....

Thus Giants provides us with all the tools free of charge to make our User Generated Content.  Giants wants us to make mods and makes it fairly simple to mod any in game asset or the two maps provided with the game.

Now section 7 gets fun with respect to transfer of usage rights to user generated content.

7.1 If the Customer creates User Generated Content for the games, he retains the rights to the content that he has generated. The Customer grants GIANTS the right to use the User Generated Content created by the Customer.

This says that we the creator of the user generated content retains the rights to the content that we created but we grant Giants the right to use the content created by the user. What is meant by the phrase "he retains the rights to the content that he has generated"  Does not say copyright nor does it imply that this content falls under any sort of creative commons license either.  (not a lawyer so I don't know for 100% sure on the next part)  I believe that digital copyright laws do not require a formal filed copyright to claim that something is a copyright by an individual one must simply show that it previously existed, prior art, and somehow prove they where the first to create it.  This proof is a significant burden though as it would some how have to be documented the creation process with time/date stamps exact to establish at what time something was first created.  To then prove that subsequent uses of that asset was based upon the prior art.

7.3 If the Customer creates, disseminates, exchanges, sends, transfers, publishes or uploads any User Generated Content for the games, it shall automatically grant to GIANTS the usage rights described below, without the need for GIANTS to obtain permission or pay for the User Generated Content:

  • Through the dissemination, exchange, sending, transfer, publication, uploading or public disclosure of the User Generated Content online, the Customer shall grant GIANTS the global, free-of-charge, non-time-limited, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right to copy, distribute, publish, modify, translate, archive and store the User Generated Content generated by the user and to create edits of it in any form and format and in currently available and hereafter developed media. The Customer shall waive any moral rights which it holds to the User Generated Content generated by the Customer.
  • Through the distribution, exchange, sending, transfer, publication and uploading of the User Generated Content generated by the Customer, the Customer shall otherwise acknowledge that other users may use the generated User Generated Content. GIANTS shall not be liable for the actions of other users which may infringe rights to the generated User Generated Content. In the case of disputes with other users, the Customer himself shall be responsible for contacting the affected users asserting any claims.
  • The Customer shall grant GIANTS a free-of-charge user license for all online User Generated Content which he creates or shares during his use of GIANTS Editor and/or the online service, on an open-ended basis, in perpetuity, irrevocably, without restriction or limitation, for all currently available or hereafter designed devices, formats or forms, which can be granted, transferred, leased, published, or publicly and globally displayed for all objects or devices in the form of a license. This license shall primarily cover the rights to copy, alter, reproduce in part or in full, modify, develop, translate, use for any User Generated Content, incorporate into other works, exclude in part or in full from elements and/or the addition of elements, and the deletion, publication, distribution, sale or commercialization thereof.

This one is fun.  When Seasons was released there where forum postings about how Giants should buy it from the development team to use in the next version of the game.  Well 7.3 simply states that by creation and then publishing of the mod Giants is immediately granted usage rights to the user generated content.  The first bullet is very nice indeed to favor Giants.  The mere act of creating and providing the Seasons mod fr download gives Giants the ability to use it in any form going forward. Now Giants may pay them something for their work but based on the above they don't have to legally do so.

Now point number 2 is very interesting with respect to the person that creates the user generated content regaining the rights as outlined in point 7.1  Its saying that If I create something and upload it I am thereby granting other users to use my creation.  If I create a building and put it on a map I create and then upload it it seems I not only allow people to 'use' the building and map by playing it but also given the ease of use in exporting items out of a  map to then use that building elsewhere.  

The third bullet just goes to reinforce the first.  It further states that Giants, not other users, has full rights to any and all user generated content that is generated using the Giants.

Now I am a huge fan of giving people credit.  I do not download mods unless I can be reasonably sure I am getting it from the mod author.  It is sometimes very difficult to know for sure.  I just recently did a map video only to find out that the map I used was a nockoff of another map.  I feel I corrected the issue by changing the title and editing the video to reflect the initial map vs the 'nockoff'.  But I also feel that if you create something for the game and put it out there and expect it to stand on its own and not end up being incorporated or cut apart and used in bits on other works then you are fooling yourself.  Even the fordable black sheep modding was found to have a team member that 'borrowed' parts of a model from someone else with respect to the MF pack.

Credit is deserved and should be given in as greatest accuracy as possible.  With so many mods out there knowing who to give proper credit to is extremely difficult and I commend everyone that tries their best to give and track down the initial creator of something for credit.  its the individuals that don't get credit or make little tweaks to something and then call it their own work that are in the wrong.

 

 

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My head hurts now Arghh(

This is a on going conversation in the fs community, as long as the right credits are passed on then its all good but if a person tries to pass of work as their own as has happened on many occasions then thats wrong plain and simple, I do agree that if you put your work out there then its fair game, it would be nice that all credits are mentioned. Modder sgould make sure they put their credits in the modesc file so its easy to give the correct credit or better yet a file that can not be removed only added to everytime somebody makes a edit would be nice.

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People who steel mods, maps, models etc, could not care less how many copyrights there are on anything. Pirate bay is all the poof you need. If it bothers you, keep it all private, or give it away for the good of all. 

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Might as well jump into the pool on this one.

When I first started on my map I promised my self two things, one I'd stay true to the vision I had for the map, and two I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about what happens after the map is released. There was a lot of blood sweat and tears put into this map, but as Jerry mentioned I kept at it because I was having fun. I also need to remember that as much as I think of Nagce Valley as my map it was built on the shoulders of others. Without all of the great assets created by Giants and other modders my map would be nothing but a few fields and a lot of trees, so while I still think of it as mine, I had a lot of help along the way. This has led to me feeling somewhat more defensive about my maps credits though, If I don't take some measure to protect my map then the credits for those assets may be at risk. The one disclaimer I put with my map, is that if you feel the absolute need to upload it elsewhere without permission please keep the credits intact. 

As to what Giants is legally entitled to do I feel it's far more important to focus on what's in Giants best interest to do. While Giants may have a legal right to appropriate a modders work without compensation, be it monetary or attribution, doing so would likely damage their relationship with the mod community, which is something they can ill afford to do. There's no doubt in my mind that the mod community drives sales of Farming Simulator and that Giants has a vested interest in keeping us reasonably happy, and to that end I think they've been doing a good job of keeping things positive.

Now to stir the pot a bit. While I agree with most of the sentiments here about not getting to hung up on the ownership of my map I wonder if the YouTubers have the same let it be attitude when it applies to their videos.  We've both created digital content based in part on someone else's work and then released that content to the internet. Maybe it's not as much of an apples to apples comparison as I'm making it out to be but I would like to hear how others feel on the subject. 

 

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@chaseydog brings up a good point.  If I go out and photograph a landscape, I can copyright that photograph.  Likewise, if I record an audio only podcast of nothing but my voice I can do the same.  However, in my YT videos....I'm using a game created by someone else and also the same applies to the mods I use.  Now I give full credit and even do my level best to ensure the mods I use in my "Let's Play" videos are as authentic to the original modder.  But there is a fine line I suppose.  

Of course, regardless....Giants, SCS, Playway, Lockheed Martin etc. etc. etc. all benefit from the videos I make as I'm sure even my little channel content convinces some to go out and purchase something.  

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I'll add this as another thought.  As the oldest generation of people I have ever known come from what we refer to as the "Greatest Generation".  These are the individuals who lived during the WWII era.  Anyway, the further we as a society get away from the types of individuals (my grandparents age) the worse we get as a society.  Everything from manners, attitudes and even common sense seem to be vanishing or at least being diluted.  This applies to what we're talking about here as well as what @bipolarprophet posted about regarding trolls.  
 

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Re videos as a small channel I really don't mind what happens to my videos  after I have made and uploaded them. I just enjoy making videos and that is the reward I want, the enjoymentLaugh)

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53 minutes ago, chaseydog said:

 

Now to stir the pot a bit. While I agree with most of the sentiments here about not getting to hung up on the ownership of my map I wonder if the YouTubers have the same let it be attitude when it applies to their videos.  We've both created digital content based in part on someone else's work and then released that content to the internet. Maybe it's not as much of an apples to apples comparison as I'm making it out to be but I would like to hear how others feel on the subject. 

 

As I've said before, there is little to nothing I could do if my videos were suddenly posted somewhere without my permission. I don't worry about it and YouTube has a pretty good system of tracking where and when your video(s) have been watched and if they have been embedded anywhere. Your point is valid in the case that I use games that I did not create to create content. It is a sad fact that the internet is what it is and we all have two choices: 1. Deal with it. 2. Stop using it. Oh and @GrizzlyBearSims I'm a "gen X'r" I always thought we were the "Greatest Generation" ;)

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I thought on my last point a bit more and now I'm thinking that it's not so apples to apples at least in a practical sense. I can see taking someone else's map, tweaking it to make it your own, and enjoying your vision of the map. I can even see wanting to share your vision with others, though I still think the right thing to do would be to get the original map makers blessing before you share. On the other hand I can't see how using parts of your video in my video would be the least bit enjoyable though given the popularity of 'comment' videos someone finds some pleasure in it. 

 

Great discussion 

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On 8/7/2017 at 11:23, OldGuyFarmer said:

They may add some stuff they may remove some stuff I don't really care as long as they are enjoying it and having fun. All I ask is that they maybe try and remember to give me credit for the base map and if they forget or don't so be it I had fun creating the map and have moved on to my next project it's no big deal it's a freaking game and everyone needs to relax and enjoy.

This is all fine and Dandy.   If you have that attitude about your own maps or those base maps that come with the game go for it.   But I do think that releasing another Map authors map with your own edit in it to the public is NOT cool.    If that map author agrees with you and it's all in the open that's fine.   But not everyone sees it this way.  I   edit every map I play.  but it's mine and mine alone then.   I don't share it into the world.  I play my map.      Respect the work and wishes of individuals.   they built it,  the deserve it.

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I think the only thing that I can add is that there are people making A LOT of money from stealing mods and my conscience can't settle that with my head. I know there is absolutely nothing I can do about it but I'll be damned to hell before I'll condone or even accept it. Lots of people are mistaken in the view that uploading a mod to one of these third party hosting sites doesn't garner them much in the way of an income but when such thieves have multi-millions of downloads to their name then you can see that it soon adds up to more than a few pence/cents. Even the thought of someone taking my work and uploading it under their name is enough to stop me from ever even trying to create a mod and/or map.

 

As always this is only my ten cents (my two cents is free)

John (AKA Slim)

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Please guys calm down.

We like a frank discussion but be polite as for going off topic that is almost a given it will happen.

 

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This topic has been moderated as it it has gone to personal attacks which is one thing that we do not allow at pc-sg, you are all welcome to your opinions and are free to post them, as long as the language is family friendly and no personal attacks or comments that lead to unnecessary animosity to other members are avoided.

Please continue but remember to follow the site Guidelines

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Posted (edited)

Ok here's my one cent opinion on all this for what it's worth. How I would feel if someone used my videos?  The answer is I would be very upset.

I put a lot of hard work into my videos and they are monetized. I do not want people using my content without my permission. That is one reason why I watermark my videos.
 In general I feel there is a need for good old fashioned sensible  judgement that our parents taught us.

Now as far as mods go well I feel the same way. I will say I think the copyright thing is a futile effort to try to dissuade people from stealing your work. Even if you can copyright a farming sim mod you would have to spend thousands of dollars in legal fees to prosecute the offender. So the copyright thing goes in the rubbish.

Now, I firmly believe in a common courtesy and respect towards a mod author.  If we focus on the key issue which is whether or not it is ethical to take a mod that someone has possibly put hundreds of hours work into it , edit the mod and post it or share it out to subscribers or any other form of social arena is this the right thing to do?

The answer is a big fat-NO.

The only permissible and acceptable situation in my opinion one can make mods available for public download without permission is a multi-player situation. That doesn't  mean you make a server with the purpose of distributing your edited/ pinched mods either.

Giants indeed is the final holder of rights to all content produced for the game however they have made the GE editor and even map content available for the community to use and create their own works. 

This in my opinion commands common respect and ethical behavior. Give the mod author credit and ask permission to release your edited version of his or her mod! 

Can you realistically credit or get permission for every single model? No, however I feel the mod as a complete, entire work should be respected as a creation of the original author.

You can make an effort to get permission for certain items and features that may stand out aside from the vanilla giants models.

For example, Oxygen David made his own cloud movement script andhis own building models. If I was to use those in a map that i am making or editing I would ask his permission to use them. Do I have to by law-no but it is the right thing to do! 

If you are a modder and you don't mind people doing whatever they want with your work then that's how you feel about your work. That doesn't mean you apply that philosophy to other people's work.

Based on my personal opinion I feel the bottom line is clear.

If you want to edit a map or any other mod that you did not create and make available for download to the public then you need to use common sense and good moral/ ethical thinking which in my opinion means respect the mod authors wishes. 

Law or no law. Copyright or no Copyright it is simply wrong.  

I don't need a legal document to teach me right from wrong.

My mother taught me,lol.

Thank you for reading if you got this far.

Sincerely, Eustace Pharmer.

Edited by Eustace Pharmer
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It may look as if Eustace and myself are at loggerheads. But remember I don't monetise and to be honest I don't put in anywhere near the work that EP puts in. If mine were the same standard (in looks) that EP has I wouldn't want them used without my permission.

I'm always in awe of the look of EP's videos:)

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12 hours ago, mereman said:

It may look as if Eustace and myself are at loggerheads. But remember I don't monetise and to be honest I don't put in anywhere near the work that EP puts in. If mine were the same standard (in looks) that EP has I wouldn't want them used without my permission.

I'm always in awe of the look of EP's videos:)

Awe Mike that's really nice of you to say. Thank you. Your videos are awesome. You put a lot of effort and your creative stories are brill!

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This topic will be closed in the interests of fairness as the original topic author is no longer a member of PC-SG and there for can not respond to any further posts, if you would like to continue to discuss this topic please start a fresh thread.

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